Adam Liaw, winner of the 2010 series of Masterchef Australia, talks to Valerie Khoo from the Sydney Writers’ Centre on his first cookbook Two Asian Kitchens. He chats about life after being thrust into the national spotlight. Interviewed in his very own home kitchen, Adam has left his previous career as a lawyer to become one of the most recognised faces on Australian television. We talk to him about his whirlwind rise to fame.
Transcript
Note: This transcript has been edited for readability
Valerie
Valerie Khoo here for the Sydney Writers’ Centre. I’m here with Adam Liaw. Adam is a cook, lawyer, author, and a blogger. In 2010 he famously won the second series of MasterChef Australia, and his first cookbook is Two Asian Kitchens. Adam, thank you for joining us today.
Adam
Thanks, Valerie.
Valerie
Tell us about Two Asian Kitchens, where did that idea come about? Why Two Kitchens?
Adam
That’s kind of, I guess it came around probably when I first started thinking about writing, thinking about all the things that you want to put in there. And I love the historical aspect of food, and I love that there are dishes that go back centuries that we still cook today. And then I think there’s also this, there’s a lot more modernity that needs to be in the food world, and you have to make things contemporary to make sure they are relevant for people to cook and eat everyday. I think that Two Asian Kitchens was that tension between the really old dishes that we have cooked for ages, and also those more modern dishes that we’re connected to now.
Valerie
So, did you have to do a lot of research for the book, to explore the century-old recipes?
Adam
I knew a lot of the sort of bare bones of it, and then it was just getting a little bit further into it; taking out old cookbooks, asking people where these dishes come from. There’s lots of information out there. So, I did have to do some research, but luckily, it is a bit of a hobby of mine, so I did know a lot of it before anyway.
Valerie
In 2008, way before the MasterChef phenomenon, you started a blog. Why did you start the blog? Why did you want to start writing?
Adam
I honestly have no idea. I’ve been doing writing ever since school days. I guess I started a blog for no real reason, it was just one of those things where, 2008 is sort of fairly late to come to it, but I wasn’t that sort of person when I was growing up. Once I started sort of looking around the internet a bit, I had a look at what these things are and I didn’t actually write very much in my blog for the first couple of years, and actually still actually don’t keep it updated as often as I should, which is probably what most bloggers talk about. I guess I just wanted to enjoy writing again, outside of school or the university, where you’re forced to write or writing things and then bringing them to the drawer and never reading them again, or not having anyone else read them. I think the internet is just such a great way to be a bit more creative I guess.
Valerie
Did you write much when you were younger?
Adam
Yeah. Lots, lots, I think English was always my favorite class at school, and I did a little creative writing outside of that. Both my brother and I, and all of my family, really, all really enjoy writing. So you do it in whatever ways you can.
Valerie
What kind of things were you writing when you were younger? Were you writing short stories? Were you writing cookbooks? What were you writing?
Adam
Yeah, a lot of recipes, a lot of short stories, not so much poetry or anything like that. I used to write actually quite a lot of essays. I enjoy writing essays on particular topics, but once you have a full time job, the amount of research that needs to go into writing those kinds of things, the non-fiction side of things probably gets in the way.
Valerie
Law? Why did you start off in law? Why did you choose law?
Adam
I come from an Asian family, and it’s one of those professions, you know? One of those professions where if you’re a doctor, or a lawyer, or an accountant, or an architect, or something, you’ve got a professional qualification, and your parents kind of breathe a sigh of relief. You don’t have to worry about your kid scavenging for food or anything.
Valerie
And play the piano and the violin remember yes?
Adam
I did both of those things too.
Valerie
You were tiger-mum’ed?
Adam
My parents were pretty good, but I think really, they were varying degrees of that kind of parenting, and they were both to some extent. It was never negative though, and always I really enjoyed the academic side of things as well. So, law was a pretty good fit for me. I loved studying law and I loved practicing law. I’m doing something a little different now.
Valerie
Yeah, so you were in media law and then you decided, “Oh I think I might apply for MasterChef.” How did that come about?
Adam
Well, I had a lot of friends that were encouraging me to apply. I was actually working in Japan at that stage. I was working for an American company over there as their lawyer. After the global financial crisis there was sort of less work going around, and I had a lot of free time on my hands at work.
So, it was one of those times where you come across something on the internet, the application for MasterChef. It was a show that some of my friends had been talking about. So I put that in and then it sort of coincided with the end of my time in Japan, and I was looking to leave Japan, I actually moved to Los Angeles because I had a job lined up over there. But started doing the MasterChef auditions, and having a lot of fun, and one thing lead to another, and then here we are, I guess.
Valerie
With this book, the production of it, you would have had to have cooked a hell of a lot of recipes, tested a hell of a lot of recipes, but also worked out, “Well, what can I write to surround the recipes?” Tell us about that whole process, what did you do first? Did you cook it all first and then put the book together later? How did it work, on a practical level?
Adam
I think there’s a lot of ways to approach a cookbook. A cookbook is just like any other book, like a novel, or a biography, or anything. It needs a very clear concept and a very clear idea of where you want the book to start. And then I guess, the difference between a cookbook and another style of book is that you’re telling you story through your recipes. You have a very limited amount that you can write, maybe a hundred words or so in prelude to the recipe, so you’ve got to basically curate the cookbook more so than write it.
The writing aspect is quite technical, you have to make sure you’re consistent in your measurements and all of that sort of thing. But it all starts with that idea, you have to have a very clear idea, so that you know that when there’s two recipes that’s in front of you and you can only put one in, which is the one that fits that the best. I’ve never enjoyed those cookbooks that are sort of stream of consciousness cookbooks where every recipe is like, “Well, I’ll just put that into a cookbook,” because then it doesn’t really tell a story, and so I think I wanted this book to tell a story, so we had to really that nut down that concept.
Valerie
What did you enjoy most out of it, out of this whole process, the writing process? Because there are so many aspects of it.
Adam
I love being able to sort of give voice to the food, I know how ridiculous that sounds, but there’s a lot of history and a lot of things that go on behind the dish that comes delivered to you in a restaurant or in someone’s home. And it’s nice to be able to shine a bit of light on that.
Valerie
What was the gestation period for this book?
Adam
It was very quick, actually, I’m lucky that I write fast, but I was probably doing about eight or nine recipes a day, just writing, testing, rewriting, editing, reintroductions, and everything like that. Normally, I think a cookbook can take up to about eighteen months, but we got this done in just under four.
Valerie
It’s been a year since the big day. Since you won MasterChef. What’s been the highlight of everything so far?
Adam
Wow, that’s a tough question. There’s actually so many amazing things that I’ve been privileged enough to do over the past year. It’s just hard to really nut down just one. I’ve had the chance to go to the world expo in Shanghai and cook some banquets over there. I’ve been doing some work lately with the Iron Chefs from the Japanese TV show, which is fantastic.
I think, to be honest though, it all comes down to the cookbook. That year, you know? Last year, at this time, I was really, really dreaming about having my own book, and anyone that’s writing knows how much that actually means, to want to do something like that, and then not even a year later I’ve got my own book sitting in my hand, it’s a really gratifying feeling.
Valerie
How did you feel when you first saw the final draft? Do you remember? Do you remember where you were?
Adam
Absolutely. I was just over there at my front door and the courier with the approved copy came and dropped it off. I sort of ripped the box open and had a laugh, and took a photo, and was jumping up and down. It was a good day.
Valerie
You have quite a following on Twitter. Do you enjoy interacting with your fans online? Because you do have fans now.
Adam
Yeah, yeah, it’s great. MasterChef airs in a lot of different countries, so I get messages from people all around the world, as far as Dubai or Palestine, or these days it’s airing in Indonesia, so from a population of 180 million I probably get probably about six or seven hundred messages from Indonesia in a day which is interesting. I never expected that to happen. I think Twitter’s great, I think it’s a great tool for writers. It’s a real skill, I think to be able to express something as concisely a 140 characters, I think. I actually really enjoy writing on Twitter, probably even more so writing on a blog.
Valerie
Just very recently on Twitter you actually gave a warning to journalists. Saying that, starting off an interview with “So tell me a little bit about yourself” is not ideal. Have you already gotten a bit jaded with the media and all of the promotion and publicity that you have to do?
Adam
It’s unfortunate that our interview happens to be on the same day that I wrote that, which I did this morning. There is no way a reflection on this interview, but, you know, I guess I do a lot of interviews and you get to see a lot of different styles. And then you also get to see a lot of different products that come out of that.
You sit with some journalists that almost seem completely disinterested in what your saying, then the piece comes out that they’ve written, and it’s clear that they’ve actually totally absorbed everything that you’ve been saying, and put their own spin on that. I’ve seen some amazing articles that have come out like that. But I guess everyone has their own style in how they interview and how they write, and how they collect information like that. I think starting with something like tell me a little bit about yourself is probably not the ideal start.
Valerie
Now you sound like you appreciate good writing and you sound like you enjoy good writing yourself. Tell us what you’re working on next, in terms of a book, or a memoir, or are your trying some other genre? What’s happening in your writing?
Adam
I don’t think I’m at a memoir stage yet. But I’m working on a second book at the moment, I’m still trying to nut down the concept of that. And that’s not an easy process. I was very, very lucky with this book that it was something that I wanted to write for a while and then the publisher was very happy for me to put that into effect. The second book, I think is going to be a bit – it’s smarter and a bit more discerning. The second album, for a rock band or something like that – for a writer, I think the second is a little more important than the first. I’d got some really great reviews on this one, on this; universally fantastic reviews. I do want to follow it up, but with the right kind of book.
Valerie
The pressure. Do you want to write other types of things?
Adam
I’d love to.
Valerie
Like what?
Adam
Like I said before, I enjoy writing essays. I had an idea for a book that I’d love to write, it’s about the history of Asian food in Australia. There’s a lot of books around, matter of fact a fantastic book about food generally in Australia generally, but I think we’re almost past the point now where we’re trying to decide whether or not Australia has a food culture or not. It’s very clear, to me anyway, it’s very clear that we do. You can start exploring different aspects of that in detail. Obviously Asian food is something that I’m very interested in, and I’d love to really drill down into how Asian has shaped the way we eat in Australia.
Valerie
When you write about food, it can sometimes be difficult to come up with different descriptions to talk about different flavors or textures. How do you overcome that?
Adam
I think the most interesting thing about food is not what’s on the plate. You’ll struggle if all you want to describe is flaky bits of salmon or the delicious taste of something, you really are going to run out of words if you do that. But I think, like with most things, with food has to essentially almost be invisible. I mean obviously you’ve got to do photos, recipes, and stuff like that. But then the context that you put that through, again, whether or not it’s how it made someone feel, or why it was made, or how it changed throughout the ages, those are the interesting stories that kind of surround something as simple as a plate of food.
Valerie
Do you think you will ever go back to law?
Adam
I wouldn’t rule it out, I really enjoyed being a lawyer, but for the time being, I’m a little bit too busy.
Valerie
At the Sydney Writers’ Centre, we have a lot of students, believe it or not, who are lawyers, who are really keen to stop being lawyers and are really keen to get into food or food writing. What is it with the law industry?
Adam
I was never one of those disgruntled lawyers that hated law and wanted to get out of it. But I guess, you have to be very creative as a lawyer, it doesn’t really strike you as one of the most creative fields, but I think it is very creative. There are a lot of creative parts to it. So people inevitably look in other directions as an outlet for that creativity, and for the literary and creative part they are automatically drawn to law, writing is obviously a very clear next step.
Valerie
What would your advice be to people who want to do something like you? They might not win MasterChef?
Adam
Enter a reality TV competition?
Valerie
Well, now they might not want to win MasterChef, might not think that’s a possibility, but they really want to make food their living, to write about food, and to be in the food media.
Adam
I think the first thing that people need to look at is just because you like writing and you like food, doesn’t mean you like writing about food. There’s a lot of things that go into writing about food that really don’t tick those boxes when it comes around to doing it. I think you’ve got to first look at whether that’s something you really want to do, or it’s just you haven’t put in enough thought into what you really want to do. So you like food and you like writing, so you want to write about food.
Secondly, I think if you made the decision that you do really want to write about food, is write about it. There’s so many different aspects and ways for people to involve themselves in that industry, whether it’s – it could be the proofreading, it could be writing a blog. It could be running your own restaurant. It could be anything really, essays that you present, I went to the Symposium of Australian Gastronomy recently, where – it was three days event, people were presenting essays about food. There’s many different aspects and many different ways to write about the things that you love, but I think people wait until they’ve got an article coming out in a magazine, or a column, or something like that to start writing. If you wait for that, and then start writing afterwards, you’re not going to be anywhere near as good a writer than if you’ve written fifty articles and the fifty first gets published.
Valerie
Paint us a picture in five years’ time, what will you be doing?
Adam
Wow, I would love to have a restaurant open. I would love to be -
Valerie
That’s on the cards? That’s happening, is it?
Adam
Yeah, yeah – we’re working on it. It has taken me a very long though, particularly with my schedule has not left a lot of time to work on the restaurant, it’s pretty much a whirlwind.
Valerie
And it’s Japanese-inspired?
Adam
Yeah, it’s a very traditional Japanese restaurant, something casual and traditional. So, I’d love to have that going. I’d love to still be writing cookbooks, going onboard. I think there’s a lot that can be written in terms of cookbooks, even though you walk into a bookstore these days it seems like it’s all cookbooks in there. I think there are some real areas that are not being touched in cookbooks. I would love to be doing for more incidental writing, I do; magazines, and newspapers, and that kind of thing, I’d love to do more of that on a more regular basis.
Valerie
And will you burst onto the scene in television, how about television? Do you want to do an Anthony Bourdain No Reservations kind of thing?
Adam
I’m not really a TV kind of guy. It’s a little unfortunate because TV is the emperor of all media, in Australia. And if you don’t like being on TV you tend to struggle a little bit. It’s not that I don’t like being on TV, it’s just at the moment, it’s not a great bit for me. I enjoy writing, I enjoy cooking, I’d rather do that in this kitchen rather than in front of 2 million, lights and cameras.
Valerie
Finally, we brought some Tupperware, we were hoping to take away some food from you, maybe some Kaya toast or chicken rice, is that possible?
Adam
Potentially. I’m just out of of Kaya, I finished my last batch this morning, but I have some pork belly drying in the fridge.
Valerie
Well, we’ll live with that. Thank you very much for your time today Adam.
Adam
Thanks Valerie.
Click here for a behind-the-scenes account into our visit.
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Posted on: 4 August 2011
